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与苏伟的对谈

In Conversation with Su Wei
2018

我们先从你搬回北京后的工作感受谈起吧，你觉得你的工作语境变化了吗，是否以及如何在发现自己工作的对话对象？
我觉得搬回北京后对作品的影响还是蛮大的，北京的物理空间，人文环境和伦敦截然不同，北京的体量巨大，组织松散而严密；伦敦小而紧凑，处处精心算计，秩序井然。外面环境结构的变化影响了我自己，自然影响了自己的作品。我的作品的对话一直发生在我与自身，我与一切油画相关物质材料的关系上，所以作品自身增加了某些压力，而画面面貌上并未发生断裂。

Let’s start with the change since you moved back to Beijing. Do you think your working context has changed, and how do you find the subject matter/dialogue you work with?
I think the impact on work after moving back to Beijing is quite big. The physical space and cultural environment of Beijing are very different to that of London. Beijing is huge and loosely, but effectively, organised; London is small and compact, and functions with exquisite structure. As changes in the external environment affect myself, then naturally they affect my work. The dialogue in my work always takes place between me and the physicality of oil painting. Therefore, a certain degree of pressure has been added to the work itself, but the continuity of works has not broken down.

艺术家可能并没有义务去对周遭语境的变化在创作上给予回应，但是环境的变化的确可以在我们作为一个个体的人的存在的很多层面上产生影响。你能多谈几句关于这两年（2015-17）你搬回北京的感受吗？尤其是去年最后的两三个月，现实的重力忽然变得很大，似乎每个人都在卷入其中，包括你也是被迫要搬离原来的工作室
在北京生活，一个人总要面临巨大的不确定性，上个月还是荒地，这个月就起了高楼。本来住得好好的房子可以被限期搬离。一切都崭新，空旷而抽象，我喜欢看人们生活了很久的地方，看到人们与生活环境对抗，对话，乃至和解的痕迹，也显示着人们对待空间的态度，但是现在，在每个城市，一切都太新了，新得让人觉得不真实。现实的重力一直都在，只是不降临到我们每个人具体的生活中的时候很难觉察，对这种重力的觉察有时会让人喘不过气来，这无所谓好坏，这是我们客观生长的环境，在这样的环境中，可能做出好的艺术，也可以做出坏的艺术。对我来说现实的重量更多的是来自于即将降生的小生命，对于工作室，我并没有特别的担心，高大的，在城市近郊又价格低廉的工作室只是一个特殊时期下存在的产物，只是会随着城市的发展而消失，（我们也许需要适应一种新常态：搬到偏远的城市边缘的大工作室，或者在城里回归公寓。）很多在伦敦的艺术家也就用十到二十平米的工作室，做出了伟大的作品。艺术就像野草一样，不管在哪里，总会生长的。

Artists may not be obliged to respond accordingly to changes in their surroundings, but environmental changes can indeed affect many aspects of our existence as individuals. Can you say a few words about your feelings regarding your move back to Beijing two two years ago (2015)? Especially in the final two or three months of last year, the burden of reality suddenly became so great that it seemed as if everyone was involved, and you were also forced to move out of your studio.
Living in Beijing, one has to face immeasurable uncertainty. For example, a wasteland can be turned into skyscrapers; People are forced to leave the place in which they have lived for years with only a very short notice. Everywhere, what you see is new, spacious and abstract. I like to see the places in whiuch people have lived for a long time, to see the signs of confrontation, dialogue and even reconciliation between people and their living environment. That shows people’s attitudes towards space. Nowadays, in each city, everything is too new to make people feel real.The burden of reality has always been there, and it is hard to realise the weight of this burden until it comes into our lives. Sometimes it is overwhelming. But it is not necessarily a good or a bad thing. This is the environment we live in: we may make good art, but we can also make bad art.For me, the burden is more that of the baby being born. I do not have any special concerns about the studio. The large, high-ceiling, low-cost studios on the outskirts of the city will disappear as the city grows (we may need to adapt to a new normal: moving to large studios far from the city or return to apartments in the city itself.) Many London-based artists have made a great artwork with 10 to 20sqm studios. Art is like weeds, it grows everywhere.

祝贺你要当爸爸了，一个新生命的加入会激发很多值得期待的体验。不过的确，你的创作似乎是更为内敛的，对话的发生也是在潜在和低音的层面，浮出水面的部分很少。我们聊一聊你的创作思路吧，你是三四年前开始着手画这种双人形象的主题对吗，虽然这个题目带有一点哲学色彩，你的处理更多是从画面的细节、人物的体态和位置等等具体细节来开展的。能谈谈你是怎么确立这个创作的思路的吗？这其中有一个心路历程在里面？
谢谢，我相信小生命会给我的工作、生活都会带来很多变化的。我的创作和我的性格是休戚相关，之前在附中的时候花了很多时间练习书法，又对自己性格的形成起到了重要作用，我练习虞世南的书法，虞书中中正，冲和，含蓄中含刚硬的气质对我的表达方式有很大影响，我也一直觉得，创作者应该退后一步，给作品留一些暧昧，模糊不清的地带，要好过去呐喊，去宣示。我在画面中不追求视觉的刺激与冲击，而是试图在创造一个似乎平静的世界，让人沉浸其中，同时会留一些线索提供解读的可能。我思考的起点并不是文字，而是自己和画面的关系，画面自身的结构，画面的空间关系，在画面之中建立秩序。《白画林》是我一开始进行创作时候的作品， 我请同学做模特，有两个并不露脸的形象，有意无意的我也用了同一个模特，在完成的时候为了加强幽深的感觉，又加重了树林的阴影。回头看来和和现在作品是有联系的。中间有一段时间我进行了绘画形式上的实验，将现实生活代入3d的游戏场景中，再写生屏幕，就是我的模拟人生系列。在这个系列进行时，我逐渐感觉到我对画面中人物微妙的心理变化感兴趣，而彼时用绘画模仿3D语言表达细腻的感受方面有受限，便停下来做版画，在速写本上不断的实验之后，发现这种表达方式比较契合自己的想法，在创作中逐渐地形成了现在的面貌。

Congratulations on becoming a dad, and may the coming of a new life will inspire many worthwhile experiences. However, your creations seem to be more introverted, the dialogue being held at the iceberg and bass level, with very few parts of the surface. Let’s talk about your thinking. How, three or four years ago, did you started to paint such a double image? Although this topic is somewhat philosophical, your execution of specific details is more based on the details of the image itself, the body’s gesture, the arrangement of figures, etc. Can you talk about how you established these ideas? And how did you develop them?
Thank you. I believe that my new-born will bring many changes both in my life and my work. My work and my character are deeply related. When I was in high school, I spent a lot of time practicing calligraphy, which played an important role in the formation of my character. The calligraphy of Yu Shinan was my role model. The characteristic of his calligraphy is that it is moderate, upright, humble, but firm and strong inside. It had a great impact on my form of expression. Also, I think that artists should take a step back, and leave some ambiguous areas in their work. It is better to suggest than to declare. Instead of pursuing visual stimuli and shocks in paintings, I try to create a seemingly calm world that immerses people, while also leaving some clues to provide the possibility of interpretation. The starting point of my thinking is not words, but the relationship between myself and the painting, the structure in the painting, and the space of the painting. I build order in my works. White Painted Forest is the first time I started to paint something other than academic studies. I asked my fellow student to be my model, and used the same model unintentionally for the two faceless figures. When the painting was completed, in order to strengthen the deep and serene feeling, I darkened the shadow of the woods. This is connected with my present work. Between White Painted Forest and the current series I am painting, I have experimented with the form of painting, constructing real life in a 3D game scene, and then painting directly from the screen. As this series progressed, I gradually felt that I was more interested in the subtle psychological changes of the characters in the paintings. However, when I found myself limited to expressing delicate feelings through an imitation of the 3D language in painting, I stopped painting and started to make prints. I also kept experiments in sketchbooks. I later found that my current mode of painting is more in line with my own ideas. Then, I was able to gradually form my practice.

这幅穿制服的女生的画我一直记得，画面中那种暧昧、物和人之间令人不安的呼应和整个欲言又止的氛围给我印象很深。你现在对描述人的心理这件事，仍然很迷恋吗？这里面的矛盾在于这个心理状态是你通过摆拍的方式创造出来的，既真实也不真实，你怎么看这个矛盾？
与其说描述人的心理，我更在意创造一种神秘而无法言说的气氛，绘画缓慢，有温度，作为一种容器，承载了这种气氛。对我来说，没有有比绘画更适合的媒介。
摆拍是实现画面的一种方式，现实是不可控的，摆拍介于可控和不可控之间，这样才有意思。真实是假象，不真实才是真相。摆拍令我和真实之间保持了必要的距离。在艺术中的真实是直见艺术家性命的，这并不等同于真实世界，真实是无法被复制的。绘画一开始就是一种虚拟语气，古人力求将这个语气说得像真的一样，即使是这样的追求，也不等于复制真实，而是一种关系上，整体感受上的准确；而我们承认了这种语气，复制真实不再是绘画的任务。对于我来说，真实存在于我的选择中，存在于绘画的缝隙里。

I have always remembered the painting of the girls in uniform. The ambiguousness of the picture, the disturbing echo between the surroundings and the figures, and the atmosphere impressed me as a whole. Are you still obsessed with describing human psychology? The contradiction here is that you create a state of mind that is both real and unreal. How do you see this contradiction?
I care more about creating a mystical and unspeakable atmosphere than describing human psychology. A slow and warm medium-like painting becomes a container that carries an atmosphere. To me, there is no medium more suitable than painting.
Hiring models and documenting their gestures is a way in which I approach what I want. As the reality itself is uncontrollable, I find the way I portray the models as swinging between the controllable and the uncontrollable to be interesting. Reality is an illusion, the manipulated world is the truth. By posing the models I keep a necessary distance from reality. The truth in art is that of the artist, which doesn’t equal the real world. The real world cannot be copied. From the very beginning, painting is subjunctive in its tone. The old masters sought to portray this tone as real. Even so, this pursuit does not mean copying the truth, but rather forming a relational and overall feeling of accuracy. Now we have acknowledged this tone, copying reality is no longer the task of painting. To me, the truth exists in my choices, in the gaps of painting.

你的画面里暗含了一种给观者的体验时间，甚至可以说是在故意制造这个体验的时间，让观者变成画面深度的共同塑造者。这个方法的确是当代的，区别于传统上讲的那种作品与观者的交流方式，因为你在创作里是在破解或者说重新生产出交流的模式，就像“虚拟人生”一样，场景、人物状态是在机制性的可控中被展现的。或者可能也是你宁愿用心理状态而非情感状态来描述你画画关注的对象，对前者来说，机制是必然的前提，而后者则和创作者本身的身体直觉更相关。是否可以这样理解？
体验时间是必要的，这一方面是由绘画的材料特性决定的，一方面我会塑造一种观看机制，这样的观看是有层次的，观者从一开始看到画面，再看第二遍，第三遍，存在着一个逐渐递进的过程。画的形式和呈现机制提供了解读的可能，但这些机制并不能会使艺术家的意图完全传送至观众，绘画本身不是一个精确的媒介，画一张画需要从构图到笔触到颜料的转化中，凭直觉作出无数种选择，这些选择对画家来讲有最佳选择，但就理解来讲并不存在一对一的精确性，在其中存在着巨大的可能性，这也正是它的美感所在。心理状态这个词相较情感状态在我的画中更恰当，心理状态是关于整体画面的感受，它和绘画语言结合得更紧密，而情感状态更具体，我警惕这种具体性，过于显著的东西会破坏掉画面里微妙的气氛。

Your picture implies a time of experience for the viewer, or even that you are seeking to deliberately create this experience, allowing the viewer to become a co-creator of the depth of the painting. This way you achieve this is contemporary, being distinct from the traditional way of communicating with viewers. This is because you crack or recreate the traditional mode of communication in your works. Just like virtual life scenes, the psychological status of the characters is delivered through the controllable mechanism. Or, perhaps, you prefer to depict subjects in terms of their psychological state rather than their sensibilities? For the former, the mechanism is a necessary prerequisite, while the latter is more relevant to the artist‘s instinct. Can it be interpreted in such way?
Allowing the viewer time to experience a painting is necessary. On the one hand, this is determined by the materiality of painting medium. On the one hand, I create a mechanism for viewing. This process is hierarchical, as the understanding of the work deepens as the viewer spends time with the painting. It is a gradual progress. The form of the painting and how it presents itself provide the possibility of interpretation. However, these mechanisms do not completely deliver the artist’s intention to the audience. Painting itself is not an accurate medium. Finishing a painting requires the conversion from composition, to brushwork, to paint. There are countless intuitive choices made during this process. These choices are the best choices for the painter, but a one-to-one accuracy doesn’t exist in understanding, so there is great depth of possibility, which is where its beauty lies. The term psychological state is more appropriate for my painting than sensibilities. The psychological state is about the overall feeling of the painting. It is more closely integrated with the painting language itself. The term sensibility is too specified. I’m wary of this concreteness, this over-prominent. Such things will ruin the subtle atmosphere of the picture.

双人画的创作你进行了多久了？对于两个形象重复的兴趣现在在哪个方向上进行？我的直觉是你现在的双人画里面，因为空间视角、透视方法的变化，戏剧感在增强，这样做的目的是什么？它会不会走到你本来对这种方法设置的临界点上，而变得威胁这种方法在你思考中的合法性？
从第一张两个访问者算起，这一系列持续了三年多了。空间，尤其是人与背景的关系从一开始便是我关注的对象，这次在画面本身的维度之外，我更关注画面中空间与透视的关系，以及画出来的空间和实际空间的关系，如果说有目的的话，便是它是我探索的一部分，反映了我目前的兴趣所在。我现在试图将动作的戏剧性减到比较低的程度，而探索画面本身语言上的可能性，空间与透视是这个方向上众多可能性中的一种，我并不担心把这组画推到临界点，在界线边缘游走是必要的。这一点就像赛车，优秀的赛车手清楚赛车的极限在哪里，在轮胎行将打滑的时候会控制住速度，需要我注意的是极限在哪，对于这次展览的作品（《存在的隐喻》）来说，我清楚它的边缘在哪，我会避免让画面陷入玩弄形式的境地而稀释了它的密度。

How long have you been working on doubles? In what direction is this interest heading? My intuition is that the dramatic sense of the paintings is enhanced though space and perspective changes. What is the purpose of doing this? Will you come to a boundary at which this method will become a threat to the legitimacy of your thinking system?
Starting with the Two Visitors, the series has lasted more than three years. The space, especially the relationship between figures and the background, was the object of my concern from the very beginning. Apart from the dimensions of the painting itself, I paid more attention to the relationship between space and perspective in paintings, as well as the relationship between the painted space and the actual space. This is part of an exploration that reflects my current interests. I am now trying to reduce the dramatic gestures as much as I can, exploring the linguistic possibilities of the painting itself. The exploration of space and perspective is one of many possibilities in this direction, and I am not worried about pushing this group of paintings to a critical point. On the contrary, it is necessary to know where the borderline is and to play with it. It is similar to car racing. A good driver who knows the limits of his car is always able to stabilise the car before the tyres slip and the car loses control. I need to be mindful of where my limits lie. With the works for this exhibition (the Metaphors of Existence), I know where the boundaries are. Through this knowledge, I can avoid diluting a painting’s density when playing with its form.

说说这个展览吧，你在展览语言上把绘画内部的逻辑和展览空间串联了起来，这种展览的语言是否和你创作的观念可以有机地统一起来？
是统一的。我将对内部空间的探索更进一步了，一个是内部空间更多元了，一个是画面和观众的关系发生了些许变化，观众的角色变得更主动：距离，角度都会影响观看的感受，画面因此也多了观看的层次。这和到北京后工作室空间的变化有关，画的时候有足够大的墙壁去感受上墙的效果（我直接挂在墙上画），这和伦敦逼仄的工作室很不一样，我会把好几组画同时挂起来，这样在墙上，画与画的关系更加清晰，这个展览在布展的时候调整得很细致，对现在画廊的空间我是很熟悉了，我试图通过布展建立一种大的框架，将展览的互文结构更加明确，也提供了解读的一个线索。

Speaking of this exhibition, you connect the inner logic of the paintings with the exhibition space. Can this exhibition language be unified successfully with the conceptual basis of your work?
They are unified. My exploration the interior space has gone further than before. On one hand, the internal space is more diversified; on the other hand, the relationship between the paintings and the viewers has changed. The viewer’s role has become more active: both the viewer’s distance and the angle will affect the viewing experience. There are also more levels of perception. This is related to the change in studio space after I arrived in Beijing. There sufficient wall space to get a feel of how the paintings will look like exhibited. This is very different from cramped studio space I had in London. I can hang several groups of paintings on the wall at the same time, so that the relationship between paintings is clearer. The exhibition was delicately curated. I was familiar with the gallery space. I tried to build a large framework when curating it, to make the intertextual structure of the exhibition clearer, and provides clues for the interpretation.

再提一下临界点吧，你能看到或者预判自己目前这个工作方法的临界点吗，或者你觉得目前在画面上开展的这个工作还可以在哪些面向上推进？这样问的原因，一方面是看到你对现在的这个工作方法本身有了深入的思考，在“点”的层面，这个“点”进入得足够深。但我想问的问题是，你在创作中所尝试的这种以冷静和观念化的手段塑造创作逻辑的方法，从当代艺术的历史进程以及艺术行业的角度，并不是绝对孤立的，我们可以从前辈和正在发生的历史中找到与此平行的创作方法。作为画家，你不必为这个牵连性承担任何心理负担，但作为一个思考者，你仍然要面对它的存在，这个存在会不会激发你横向地看自己的创作在这个行业的位置，或者引起你对艺术历史中一些线索的考察兴趣？
我会有一个大概的感觉， 但就目前来讲，我倾向于在实践中感受到这些边界，当一张画从头脑中落在纸上，变得具体后，才会形成判断。我会做大量的草图，要具体到挂画的高度，和观众的关系是什么，然后放在一边，半个月到一个月之后再翻看，这样会以一个较新的眼光去看它。
我通常在几个月的密集工作之后也会停下来，做些研究调查，阅读等，也用其他的媒介做作品。与自己的作品过分亲密无间，会丧失判断力，所以有足够的空间审视是必要的。
最近我在比较系统的梳理二十世纪的创作具象绘画的艺术家，具象绘画在二十世纪的大部分时间里都是一个较小的脉络，尤其是当一个人不把语言化当作自己的主要目标的时候，这个空间似乎变得更小了，想画“坏”容易，想画好很不容易。我需要更加清楚看他们如何发展自己的作品，避免再犯他们犯过的错误。我很清楚自己的画的脉络在哪，无论是技术上的来源，还是思考的起点，没有人的作品是凭空而生的。即使想法有重合的部分，比较重要的不是如何想方设法地去规避这种相遇，而是在短暂的交汇之后思路还是否按照自己的脉络流淌。

Let’s talk about the critical point. Can you see or predict the critical point for your current working method? Or, in which direction do you think your current work can be further pushed? The reason for this question is, I can see that you have thought deeply about your current working method, it has been looked deeply enough. However, this kind of method of creating logic through calmness and conceptualisation, is not absolutely isolated from the historical process of contemporary art and the art industry in general. There are parallel ways of creating from predecessors and the on-going history in China’s art industry. As an artist, you do not have to bear the psychological burden of this connection; however, as a thinker, you still have to deal with its existence. Does this inspire you to see the place of your work in the art industry, or does it arouse your interest in the history of art?
I have a rough feeling of where the boundary-point is; but, for the time being, I tend to feel such boundaries in practice. When a painting falls from the mind onto the paper, becoming physical, then I can form a judgment. I do a lot of sketches accurate to how high the painting will hang and think about the relationship between the painting and its viewers. Then I put it aside, and look at it again after half a month to one month, so I can see it from a newer perspective. After months of intensive work, I usually stop to do research or reading, etc. I also use other media for research. Excessive intimacy with your own work can result in a loss of judgment. It is necessary to keep some distance, so as to examine it properly.
Recently, I was systematically analysing twentieth-century figurative painting, which was a minor line of art for most of the twentieth century. Especially when the painters did not regard stylisation as their main goal, the creative space in this medium seems to be even smaller than normal. It’s both easy to paint “bad painting” and hard to paint well. I need to see more clearly how they developed their work in order to avoid making the mistakes they made. I am well aware of where my context lies. My thinking includes a technical source or a starting point. No one’s works come from nothing. Even if there is an overlap of ideas, what is more important is not how to avoid such an overlap, but whether your thoughts will still flow down their own path after this brief encounter.
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Somewhere Elsewhere Nowhere – Xue Ruozhe
Anny Wu, Sofija Savic
WoMA
PUBLISHED 25 FEBRUARY 2016

Let us of WoMA introduce you to our next Chinese Contemporary Artist: Xue Ruozhe. Xue’s research revolves around the deconstruction of reality, that is the process of decontextualization, or better the subversion of the ordinary. His paintings are rich in suggestions and ambiguity, and explore the infinite possibilities of representing an elsewhere, somewhere in space, but nowhere in time. Through the use of faint colors, which are nevertheless saturated with emotions, Xue constructs nostalgic worlds that put at the centre the individual, bringing out the poetic dimension and transcendental nature, as well as the implied narratives of silence and alienation.

WoMA: Your paintings, especially the Plurals series, suggest a style that is tinged with realism, or perhaps photo-realism. Yet, it also redirects in a certain sense to fiction and imagination. What are you most keen to represent? What inspires you?

What I want to represent is my state of mind, it locates somewhere between reality and the virtual world. I think it is the absurdity hidden in our daily life that inspires me. Whenever I lack ideas, I would go in search of a crowd, in the busiest streets in Beijing or London, to observe the gestures of people, and how they relate to each other.

WoMA: The composition and cut-outs within your works offer a peculiar perspective of the portrayed subjects: at times busts, other times backs, still other times hands or feet. How do you decide what to include and what to neglect?

When I was a student at CAFA, I painted portraits or nude figures every day, I was not interested in vivid colors neither in bold brushstrokes. Moreover, the pictorial subjects were set by the professors, so what I could play around were compositions and angles. I gradually found what I am really interested in, I’d like to distance myself from models, to form instead of a more or less ‘objective’ point of view, like seeing things from a calm and undisturbed eye. Indeed, I prefer suggesting rather than simply revealing everything. For instance, in Nearly There, I have solely focused on hands, this is because I consider hands as much more expressive than faces, yet they are also more implicit.

WoMA: Opaque and impassive tonalities, ranging from blue to grey, confer to your works a melancholic aura, arousing a deep sense of nostalgia in the viewer. Do you associate any color to a particular feeling? What motivates your chromatic choice?

The tonalities are not the result of my decisions, but rather the dimension my mind traveled to in that particular moment. What I try to do is to intensify the feelings that emerge in that particular instant. Paintings are like plants for me, they have their own growth path, and I simply let them grow.

WoMA: Many of your works, as in the case of Cancelled Landscape, convey a sense of alienation and anonymity. The background represents a remote “elsewhere”, and in a similar way, the portrayed figures can be imagined anywhere, but also nowhere. Which is the spatial and temporal dimension you intend to recreate and allude to?

I like to experiment on backgrounds, In Cancelled Landscape, the setting is anonymous and seems to be boundless, but if you look more carefully, you will notice a faint shadow behind the figures, suggesting that space is actually enclosed.

I think it somehow relates to storytelling; I tend to give the viewer a very limited range of details and references to think on.

Some people say my works have a timeless quality, and I believe it’s very true. Not only time is ambiguous, but also space and places I paint. What you can see is only a short time span that is sealed in the works, the figures are set somewhere you can’t really tell. For me this is crucial, a specific nature can easily distract the viewer’s attention, and thus the subtle and implicit atmosphere I build up would inevitably disappear.

WoMA: Despite the anonymity present in your paintings, your art also deals with the theme of individuality. The protagonists in your works are plunged into a reality made of silence and solitude, contemplation and transcendence. What are they looking for? What do you look for?

The doubles I portrayed do not refer to any specific person, they are only dual images of certain individuals, they are looking at nothing other than their own shadows, but they themselves are being looked at. The subjects within the frame can be very specific, like the girls, the plant, the road, I try to put my gaze on each thing equally. But when your eyes bind them together, they no longer make any sense, and you start feeling a slight sense of detachment from the image. Maybe that’s where the transcendence comes from.

WoMA: Which direction will your artistic research take? Which are the new narratives you intend to explore in the oncoming future?

I think I will dig a bit more into psychology. It’s hard to say which new narratives I will bring on, I feel my paintings are changing little by little. We shall see.
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{肆/Sì} issue 18

2014年11月刊 第18期
Nov. 2014 issue 18

1. 在《虚拟人生》系列中，你形容是用有温度的媒介描绘数码图像，然而你的画法在我们看来是很冷静理性地去画，你觉得这里面存在矛盾吗？
是不矛盾的，当然画面的最终效果骗过了多数人的眼睛， 尤其是拍成了数码照片后， 一切都变得平面了。 当实地的去观察这张画， 其实上面充满了坑坑洼洼， 有大笔刷开颜料的痕迹，也可追朔软笔轻轻拂过某个细节的动作， 随着这个系列的发展，我逐渐变得更加注意画面的绘画性，画面在保持3D观感（计算机生成的平滑，生硬的3d图像效果）的同时一方面变得“粗糙”，另一方面画面的机理变得更加丰富。

In “Virtual Life” series, you have described that you use a warm medium to depict digital images. However, we think you are actually painting in a rational manner. Do you think they are contradictory?
I don’t think it is contradictory. But of cause the final effect of the images have cheated most people’s eyes, especially when they(the paintings) are presented as digital photos, everything becomes flat. When you are actually looking at the painting on site, you will find out it is quite bumpy, and traces are shown the paint followed by big brush flows and the action that soft brush passing is gently revealed. Following the development of this series, I gradually became more painterly. At the same time as being 3D visual impression (which is flat, smooth and stiff effect that produced by computer), it becomes rough and the texture of the image appears rich.

2. 在《虚拟人生》里所选的几个场景对你来说有什么特殊含义？
我在虚拟人生里面建立的场景，主要是室内景，因为是内景会有一种日常感， 这种日常感结合所描绘的画面效果， 会产生更强的荒诞感。

In “Virtual Life” series, do the selected scenes have some special meaning?
The scenes I have created in the “Virtual Life” are mainly indoor views. This is because that indoor view brings about a sense of “everyday life”. When the sense of “everyday life” combined with the scenery that I depicted, a strong sense of absurdity would be evoked.

3. 你的肖像摄影和你的绘画之间的关系？数码和绘画的关系？
肖像一直是我的关注方向，我会对肖像进行某种荒诞化的改造来改变画面的心理状态。我对人，不同东西的个性有很深的兴趣。我画的衣褶，背影均可以看做是对某一种性格的描绘，无论是我的人像摄影， 还是绘画， 都投注了我的凝视。数码技术对我来说是生成图像过程中的一个手段，并不对我的思维有影响。

What is the relationship between your portrait photography and painting? How do you see the relationship between digital images and paintings?
I am always interested in portrait, I change the mental condition of images through a kind of absurd transforming of the portrait. I have a deep interest in people and the characteristics of different things. For example, the folds of clothes, the view of the back can both be regarded as a depiction of one kind of characteristics. My gaze is projected on both my portrait photography and paintings.
To me, the digital technique is a way of producing images, it doesn’t affect my thinking.

4.常规的肖像一般是描绘脸的，你为什么画背面？看你的作品会联想起borremans的作品，他对你影响大么？
肖像对我来说是某一个具体的性格，和心理状态的描绘，和画不画脸没有太多关系，也许一只手，一个微妙的小动作就够了。我想看我的作品联想到Borremans是因为我们的作品都有一些超现实主义，尤其是玛格丽特那一脉的影响。他(borremans)对我的影响主要在于坚定了我对绘画的确信，之前我一直对绘画有怀疑甚至排斥的态度，并认为仅仅是达到效果的一种手段。近半年来一只在思考这个问题，现在可以很确定的说，绘画是我对待世界，对待自己的方式，我选择相信绘画。另一方面说，一个人如何能做好一件连自己都不相信的事呢？

Generally, the portrait draws faces, why your portrait draws about the back? It reminds us Michael Borremans’works, does he influence you a lot?
To me, a portrait is the depiction of some specific characteristics and mental circumstance. It doesn’t have much to do with faces, perhaps a single hand or a subtle action will be enough (for a portrait). I think Borremans’ works and my works both have a reference to surrealism, especially influenced by Rene Magritte. He (Borremans) influences me mainly on firming up my belief about painting. I doubted and even rejected painting before, and I thought painting was only a method to achieve my goal. Almost in the recent half year, I have been thinking about this question, but now I can say firmly that, painting is a method which I use to see through the world and myself. I choose to believe in painting. In other words, How can one be good at a thing that he/she doesn’t believe in?

5. 在你的个人网站上，作品 《Glance》系列的分类为装置，但表现形式与照片无异，请问具体这件作品是如何呈现的？
Glance是陈列在封闭空间的一件摄影装置。我着重的是前后照片的逻辑关系, 所有照片左右相连成环状围在一个空间中， 我在网站上试图模仿这样的逻辑， 向右轻轻滑动即可看到这一串照片。

On your website, you classify the “Glance” series into the installation, but it shows no difference with photographs, how did you present this work?
Glance is a photographic installation that is presented in a closed space. My concern was the logical relationship between the front and rear photos. All the photos are linked as a loop in the space, I try to imitate this logical order on the website, by a gentle slide towards the right, ones can then see a series of photographs.

6. 你拍了几组不同的肖像，譬如隐藏的肖像、眼睛朝向一边的肖像、俯拍的肖像等，为什么有如此设定？
我对正面免冠照这样正式的的呆板的形式感兴趣， 不同的是我试图在肖像照片中加入某种心理空间。 隐去的面部， 斜瞄的眼神， 侧拍却正放的肖像， 加剧了心理上的紧张度，这也是和我在绘画上的逐渐转变是一致的。

The portraits in your works are different, some are hidden, some with eyes squinting, and some are looked down. Why do you make these disparate sets?
I am interested in the form of the hatless full-face photo, which is rigid. The difference is, I tried to put some kind of psychological space into the portrait. The hidden face, squinting eyes and the body taken from a sideways viewing but showed forward，they all raise tensions inside, constructing the process of transformation of my painting.

7. 媒介或形式对你来说重要吗？
媒介和形式对我来讲非常重要，人们在看不同的媒介时的心理期许，关注的方向上是不一样的。我绘画是我的主要媒介，也在很大程度上影响了我观看世界的方式

Is media or form important for you?
Yes, they are both very important. The psychological expectation of viewers are different when people stand in front of a painting or a photo, the points they focus on are different, too. Painting is my main media, It has great influence on the way I see this world.

8. 你的作品里存在一个脉络吗？
我认为我的作品的脉络在于我对心理的关注， 我是一个较内向的人， 所以很多的情绪是内化的，含蓄的， 我的作品在视觉上有一以贯之的平静，我拒绝夸张的形态。但是在平静的下面我一直在试图加剧作品中的心理张力。另外还有我对荒诞事物本能的好奇和对陈词滥调的兴趣， 使我的作品有时会有一定的反讽元素。

Is there a context in your work?
I think the context of my work is my concern about mentality. I am basically a shy person and many emotions are introvert and implicit. All my works have a certain level of calmness, I refuse to exaggerate form. However, beneath the calmness, I am trying to aggravate the phycological tension. Moreover, I inherently have an endless curiosity to absurd things. And I am also interested in the clichés of everyday life, all of those made my work ironic sometimes.

9. 你每个系列的作品之间的关系是？
很难说每系列作品之间有很强的关系， 有些作品是下一件作品的诱因， 有些作品是并行做的， 虽然当时看不出关系， 但做了数个之后还是可以理出来思路的。比如我的模拟人生系列，有一个非常统一的标志，就是3d的观感，就画面内容来说，我关注人的心里状态，和不同的目光交错产生的微妙心理变化。不同系列作品之间其实一直贯下来的是我对人的心理状态的关注(泰特美术馆策展人Clarrie Wallis语)不管是用什么方式，这些人或多或少都承载了我的心理状态，换一种说法，他们是演员(Avatar)。

What is the relationship of series of your works?
It is hard to say there is a strong relationship. Some are the incentive of the next; some are simultaneous, between which there is no obvious relationship, but a clue can be seen when I look back
For example, there is a very unified symbol in my series of ‘The Sims’, which is a feeling of the computer-generated 3D model. In terms of the content, I concern about the psychological states of people( said Clarrie Wallis, curator of Tate Modern).These portraits are more or less vehicles of my mood. In another word, they are avatars.

10. 你迄今为止的几个系列作品中，最满意的是哪一组？为什么？
我最满意的是我现在做的，比如《两位来访者》等，可能还无法并成一个系列， 我也暂时无意去做一个系列， 我在这里重拾了对绘画的信心。 我认为画我所相信的东西是非常重要的。

Which series is your most satisfied and why?
I have to say I am pretty satisfied with what I am making now, like ‘two visitors’ and so on. But they have not be able to be a series. I have no idea to make a series now. I regain my confidence in painting from here. I think paint what I believe is very important.‍
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ABAgo x Ruozhe Xue

First Published on 6 July, 2019
https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/KIsY-cjyT22AHI1HhEPLRw

1. 时间拨回到16、7年前，在静谧的凤凰山上，雨后的夏日，空气中弥漫着一种泥土和木叶交融的味道，那里可能有你对油画的早期真实记忆。李老师的画室就像引力波一样对周围产生涟漪，蔓延之后的时空和物质则会变得丰富庞大，在短短一两年内这里吸引了一群14、5岁的同学少年，这其中就有薛若哲、鹿莹、刘时宇、邵义博、焦文龙、武子扬……每个人深受这里的影响开始了不一样的轨迹。惊奇的设想：这里像是开启平行时空的起点，很难想象在那个艺术资讯匮乏的年代，如果你在学画初期没有去请李老师出山，你，甚至是我们几个人的成长轨迹都会通往另一个时空。这也许是你第一次在公开场合回顾你与凤凰山，来随意谈谈你与画布的早期关系吧？

凤凰山就像一个乌托邦，有实践中的油画家在你身边言传身教，和仅仅在画班里接受学前的训练，绝对是两回事。和平常画班招生不一样，李老师在第一次见每个人的时候，都会劝他/她不要画画，因为画画不仅需要天赋，也需要坚忍不拔的毅力。多年之后，我理解了他为什么这么说，如果我处在李老师当时的位置，我也会这么对我的学生说的。在李老师那里，我真正喜欢上了油画这个材料，打开了眼界，人们说第一口奶是至关重要的，我对于自己之后的学习方向，也比同龄人有了更清晰的规划。
油画是一个很磨性子的材料，它不像素描那么直接，那么容易上手，素描能达到的程度，油画可能要几年后才能达到。从开始到摸清楚基本规律，到用起来得心应手，我花了十几年的时间。所以开始和画布的关系，更多的是试探，试探油画是什么样的，摸清它的性情。

2. 也许时间过得越久酿出的味道也是不同，从徐州到北京再到欧洲，那些潜意识里所做的决定，我指的是像是站在重要时间分叉节点时的决定，可能只会出现一两次（可以是艺术上的方向，也可以是其他重要的决定）。一旦前行就没法回头了，你的绘画中从一开始就选择了“具象”这条道路，我依稀记得你在凤凰山时最早是喜欢一些德国文艺复兴的画家，后来在上附中前又迷恋德加与安格尔。我想问的是如果在潜意识里根植于一条道路，那么之后其中遇到的新选择你又会做出怎样的权衡和异变？例如在长时间的内在波动中解决画面里的一个个问题。

我记得最早喜欢丢勒，并不是因为对他的画有多认同，而是因为他的素描，在他无微不至的线条的层层包裹之下，我看到了当时的素描体系之外的另一种可能性。从一开始，我就很不喜欢和别人一样。上了附中后，附中是非常典型的全因素素描体系，同学们画的速写似乎也有一些套路，附中对速写的评定是有一个偏好的，这个偏好就是生动，观察身边的生活。关注周围的生活没有问题，问题出在对生动性的判定上面，我并不认同他们的标准，只要你的线条，涂的颜色遵循某些套路，他们一定会喜欢。但有人画任何人都是一个样，布褶不管软硬，线条都绕来绕去，这就不对了，这是艺术感受力的问题。这时候，我接受了安格尔-德加的造型体系。一方面是喜欢，另一方面也是在探索适合自己的观察方法和造型语言。当时国内能买到的进口画册中，只有一本德加的素描，大概有100页左右，我把里面的每张画都临摹过两到三遍，那本书我包了书皮，最后还是被翻烂了，到处脱页。我也试着找到安格尔印的最好的画册来临摹，到最后已经可以临摹的很像了。大学四年还是一样的写生课，我感觉到有些不对，于是开始注重当代艺术的学习，从材料与观念入手探讨它们之间的逻辑关系。在毕业创作的时候，我想的也是如何把观念植入绘画，于是做了模拟人生系列。大概有两年的时间，都在虚拟——真实这个关系中探索，直到后来，我觉得3D这个方式有点限制我想表达的微妙情绪了，并且探索似乎在一个平面中进行无法深入，我便将这个系列暂停了下来，等待有新的想法注入。在实验了一段时间后，我决定重新回到写实的语言，把写实的语言作为一种材料，探讨它在在当代语境中的可能性，并且写实语言可以更逼近我想表达的内容，我经常会做一些和手头所做的事情没什么关系的“杂事”，但是事后发现他们也都慢慢的融合在一起了，不一定是视觉上的，有可能是思维方式上的。

3. 可能是一个比较广泛的话题。你是80后的末端出生的，观看系统的多样性与环境的迭代愈发复杂。对于当代艺术家而言，当下的社会生态、环境变迁、新观念、新语境和科技的革新这些话题通常是绕不开的。尤其是从浸染多年的传统学院体系到伦敦生活多年再回到国内，观看系统和社交网络的差异会给你带来新的困惑吗？你又是如何找到适合自己身处于这个时代的位置呢？甚至是重新解读架上绘画在这个时代的位置。

我们这一代人的观看方式是被电视教育的。即使后来有长时间的学院写生，但这种经验并不是一种原生的，或许那种原始的方式根本就不存在，否则柯罗也不会希望每天能用因而的眼睛观看世界。不过柯罗并不知道的是，婴儿是没有视力的，他只能看清楚眼前几公分的景象。当他能看清东西的时候，大人们有一整套方式训练他的视觉，从简单的黑白图像，到色彩图像。从能看见东西的时候开始，他的视觉就是被规训的。从远古时代就是这样，我们可以想一下，为什么国画的透视可以一直是这样的; 为什么古希腊壁画已经有写实的方法了，在中世纪又回到类似简笔画的程度。我们看到的世界不一样么？我们看到的世界是一样的。是我们受过训练的眼睛有选择性地忽略了或者加强了某些东西，每一次技术的革命，认识世界方式的改变，都带来了观看的变革，这一两百年视觉领域最重要的变革当然是摄影术，自出现起，画家就不能自外于摄影，要么接受，要么反抗。电视，电影中的图像更不必说，其中的图像有一套完整的摄影逻辑，通过选择性的观看，向外输出意识形态。在这一点上，世界是扁平的。不管学院体系是多么排斥照片，观看也无法回到摄影出现之前，相反，在教学中经常可以听到这样的说法：“不要把它看成一个苹果，一块衬布，而要把它看成一块圆形的黄绿色和一块方形的紫灰色。”诸如此类，把看到的立体的世界无差别的平面化，本身就是摄影机的观看方式。我的造型方法是古典的，但我的观看方式，即使站在模特面前，也仿佛是透过摄影机观看，我们无法回到摄影出现以前的观看方式，也没有这个必要。在这么纷繁复杂的视觉世界中找到并发出自己的（视觉）声音，始终是一个视觉艺术家无法回避的问题，我的语言不是在于笔触，色彩怎么样特别，而在于绘画中所有因素合力形成的某种气息，这种气息在很早的时候接受训练的时候便有了。
绘画早已被边缘化，但是人们仍然喜欢看画，如果还有人认为绘画这种材料带有原罪的话，我只能说这人的思维还停留在现代主义时期线性的进化方式。这和我们喜欢画画的原因是一样的。艺术家在时代中的位置是艺术史家需要考虑的问题，我在做我自己的事情，我做得足够好，自然会有自己的位置。这与媒介无关，这与水平有关。

4. 我知道你留恋于意大利帕多瓦的斯特罗威妮礼拜堂和乔托的湿壁画，对你来说，站在一一副经典的绘画面前你会从哪些角度来进行观看，什么样的画算是好画？你会将这些观看经验移植到你的创作中吗？亦或是站在观看者的角度来思考创作。

我惊讶于斯特罗威妮教堂的精巧设计，在当时如此简陋的技术条件下，人们可以把教堂造的如此简约又精巧，连教堂的角度，开窗的位置都谨慎考虑过，而不像罗马的很多教堂，靠着无限繁复的细节让人震惊。我在观看乔托的壁画的时候，更注意他的画与观众的关系，好画是这样的，你每次带着不同的问题来看它，你都能在里面发现你想要的东西，而且你还一如既往的喜欢它，好画是直见作者性命的，这种观看体验无法被先进的复制技术取代，而有些画拍出来效果比看到原作还好，这就很有问题，说明这张画还可以变得更好。好坏在这个时代，不再是一元的标准，取决于你在什么立场，什么价值体系去看这张画。一张坏画未必是一件坏的作品。但是当一张好画出现的时候，它是那么明显，你会知道的。
看一张画，和看印刷品的感受是完全不一样的，你会强烈的感受到艺术家的存在，感受到若干年前他是和你一样站在画布前面的，这种存在感为绘画带来了一种自然的合法性，这种和当代艺术通过逻辑带来的合法性稍有不同。这样的观看经验多多少少影响着我的创作。艺术家是要同时具有两种身份的——制作者和和观看者，既要“醉能同其乐”，又要“醒能述以文”

5. 你曾经在德国有过交换项目，这里也是你在欧洲大陆生活最久的国家，你说过你最喜欢欧洲的城市是柏林，尤其是柏林地下所蕴藏着大量原生态的酒吧，与地上传统严谨的秩序对立成两个空间体系，又或者说是两个截然相反的平行世界。我从你的绘画中可以感受到人物一刹那置身于一个并不真实的空间，甚至是两个同样的人晦涩的时空交错。这种人、空间或场景所产生的关系，你是如何解读呢？

柏林挺不欧洲的，欧洲城市大多充满了小而美的情调，但柏林没有这种感觉，柏林和当年的北京很像，骨子里很野很糙，又有很多艺术家生活在其中，充满了活力与反叛精神。走在街道上恍然有种在北京的感觉，与其说它地上地下是两个平行世界，不如说它和其它德国城市处在两个截然相反的世界。在具象绘画中，永远要考虑到一组关系，物/人-空间/背景之间的关系，我的作品中的这种异样感，的确有很多是通过对空间的处理，以及对不同时间的同一个人的并置所暗示出来的。这可能与我的个人经历有关，总会在不同的城市之间穿梭，包围我的空间，时间，人一直在的交错，跳跃。画面中的空间也是不停的卷曲，折叠，断裂，如果放在附中、大学的时候。我不会这么做，即使在创造模拟人生系列的时候，我也非常注意画面本身空间、时间连贯性。在生活的不断跳动中，我感受到这种断裂，并接纳到我的作品中。

6. 你的画面中似乎会带有很多隐喻的部分，介于真实和不真实之间，画面之外可以隐喻感受到你在推进画面时保持的一种深度平衡，很克制的去一点点触碰到那个“微妙的点”，但又不失进取心。这种倾向于安静与不可言说的画面是否和你自身的敏感有关？或是习惯于在平静中直追问题的核心？还是受到了一些西方理论源头的影响。

平静从一开始就是我画面的重要特质，我也画不出那种很燥的很强烈的画面。我不认为我受到西方理论的影响，对待世界的方式可能受道家的影响更多，多闻数穷，不若守于中。这种方式是含蓄的，东方的，暗示要比平铺直叙要好，我希望观看是有层次的，我的画不会有那种一堆颜料扔在你面前的那种凶狠，是也不是娓娓道来，而是欲言又止，我不擅长也不喜欢说很多的话，画面的语言被不断地提炼、精简，让它变得更精确又更微妙。“损之又损，以至于无为，无为而无不为”

7. 关于“具象”绘画，或者说是关于“人”，模特是必不可少的构成元素，观看者与画面中的被观看者可能是先于绘画所产生联系的。你在选择模特时会有怎样考量和偏好？

我选择的模特都是我熟悉的朋友，我对他们的形象熟悉，他们也熟悉我。在拍摄时，彼此的状态都会比较放松。选择模特时，是根据画面需要来的，我喜欢性别特征不是特别明显的的模特，我不喜欢把画面内容弄得特别明白直白，这样会不透气

8. 来谈一谈你的摄影吧。除了绘画，胶片摄影是你一直涉及的主要创作媒介。除了记录生活和时间的轨迹，你在拍摄前会预先设定一些意象和主题吗？是对绘画的延续和补充，还是营造一个更广的镜像把思考的空间留给观看者呢？

和绘画一样，我有两种摄影的方式，一种是先有一个观念，再进行一系列的创作，另外一种是进行大量的拍摄，最后整理出来一些线索。这两种方式和我绘画的创作方式是一致的。对我来说，绘画和摄影是并行的关系，他们都有很观念的部分，也有很直觉性的东西。与画不同，我很少拍人，空景与物会更好的表达感受，绘画与摄影不同的是摄影要做减法，摄影因为它的“实”所以要“虚”一些，不需要那么具体，一方面是具体形象上的虚，另一方面是感受上的具体。而在我做观念摄影的时候经常会利用这种实，摄影很实，所以是一个非常善于撒谎的媒介; 绘画在这点上正相反，绘画是由虚到实，有不确定到具体的过程，当我将绘画和摄影并置，需要找到微妙的虚——实平衡点。这个点一旦对了，就会创造出新的语境，以及解读的可能性。

9. 今年下半年在伦敦举有你的展览，进展还顺利吧。透露一点关于这次展览的创作吧。在最近的创作中会遇到哪些最欣喜的地方以及困境又有哪些？

进展还顺利，这是我这两年来思考的一个回顾总结，表达上比之前更直接了，具体的还是看展吧！每张画都是一个新的困境，因为我希望每张画都有它自己的提问和关注的点，但又有一个大的方向。但每次经过不断实验，出现曙光的那一刻，便是最令人欣喜的，更不要提绘画过程中的愉悦感了。

10.对于国内传统而庞大的学院体系，通常会被知识分子所批判，或被认为是一种受国情影响的异变，本质上是反艺术。但你说过从某种角度看这也是一种挺有意思的存在，至少是对于这样一种庞大权力体系的存在，会多一层可以与之产生关系的纬度，这种独特的现象不会在其他国度复制。可以具体谈一谈你的创作与之产生的关系吧？正因为国内“正在发生”这些不确定的变化，是你坚定回国做当代艺术的重要外因吗？

学院这个体系的存在很有意思， 不像国外的艺术学院已经被当代艺术同质化了， 艺术教育很多时候是比较技术性的，也许是惯性，也许是默认了艺术是不能教的，只是提供了某些表达的工具。有这个系统的存在，人们可以选择与它相处的姿态，有人直接对抗，有人从中生长，有人从此出走。 我是绕着它走，细心找到它的破绽，从内部破坏它。
对于做艺术的人来说，国内太有意思了，总有层出不穷的问题在等着。比如摄影来说，我在英国的时候就完全没有拍摄的欲望，拿起相机，要么拍得像明信片，要么脑海里总有挥之不去的前人摄影的影子。回国后，我才慢慢开始恢复拍照，也有了很多摄影的想法。你说的不确定的变化就是魅力所在吧。

11.这是上一个问题的延续，是关于内在的自己与对周围环境的“距离感”和“重新认识”的话题。当在央美油画系所有人都在关注写实绘画性时，你尝试做了大量观念性的实验艺术；当到了国外多数艺术家已经抛弃绘画时，你选择了继续具象绘画，并用绘画去发掘一些人、心理和空间的新的可能性。请问是什么原因能让你在创作中保持这种清醒的“距离感”，然后重新确立一种内在与周围的关系？

我从一开始便是那种挺叛逆的人，如果周围人都在做一种事，我脑袋上的“天线”便会很警觉的竖起来。当我知道我在做别人觉得不正确的事情的时候，是非常有快感的，这也会让我非常的有信心。绘画就是现在这个时代的政治不正确，又是我喜欢干的勾当。这让我非常开心，也更清楚自己的位置。